Transcription : Clarification

Ceci est un extrait d'une transcription du module 1 de la formation au coaching systémique intégratif. La clarification est l'une des premières étapes de notre approche, relativement simple et conviviale pour les débutants, mais néanmoins très efficace.

ANNA: I felt some resistance in the last exercise. It was about the relationship between me, my mother, and her sister. When I was born, my mother was left in the hospital for the next two weeks, and I came home with my father and my aunt, my mother’s sister. For those first two weeks the aunt was my mother, she was mothering me instead of my mother. Since I can remember, since I was about five years old, I remember that my aunt was more important to me than my mother. My mother was very jealous of the relationship between me and her sister, so she was very controlling, she was even using some force, while my aunt was very supportive. During clarification, I resisted, I refused putting my mother in the place where she should be, because that place was already occupied by my aunt.

KOSJENKA : Ok, très bien. Peut-être pourrions-nous faire une démo avec vous si vous êtes d'accord, Anna ?

Clarification can be difficult to systematize and describe, because it depends so much of what your client tells you, and that could be just about anything. Let’s see what comes up with Anna and then we’ll learn more about what we can do with it. Anna, imagine to see your mother, where is she in your family map?

ANNA: She’s walking around me.

KOSJENKA: That sounds like there is some confusion about her. Sometimes when you are not quite sure where to start, or as a relatively easy introduction to clarification for a client, you could ask, „What would you like to say to this family member, that you never said or never had a chance to say?” Anna, is there something that you would spontaneously like to say to your mother that you would like your mother to know?

ANNA : J'aimerais lui dire de me lâcher un peu, de me laisser tranquille, de me laisser être.

KOSJENKA: This can also be a part of clarification. Clarification is not just about a formula, although we are working towards, let’s say, an end formula: You are my mother – I am your daughter. Especially if a relationship is difficult, let clients say whatever they want to say at first. You can think of clarification as a conversation in which everything that needs to be brought to the light is brought to the light, with the end goal of coming to an agreement of who is who in a healthy relationship. Anna, go ahead and say to your mother, “Leave me alone.”

ANNA : Laisse-moi tranquille.

KOSJENKA : Vérifier comment la mère répondrait spontanément.

ANNA: She’s a bit surprised now. She doesn’t say a thing but she’s showing me her fist, she’s shaking her fist.

KOSJENKA : Peut-être pourriez-vous expliquer à votre mère ce qui vous a dérangé, ce qui vous a troublé dans son comportement.

ANNA : Elle me criait dessus, elle me battait, elle lisait mes journaux intimes, elle vérifiait quels types de livres je lisais pour les censurer.

KOSJENKA: How would mother react if you’d explain this to her?

ANNA: She says that you have to keep your kids on a short leash. Otherwise they don’t have respect for anyone.

KOSJENKA: A few decades ago it was a common idea that you have to control your children quite harshly, otherwise you’d spoil them. People often don’t seem to see much between one extreme and the other. Anna, ask your mother, „Who taught you that?”

ANNA : Elle a dit que c'était l'école. Ma mère était enseignante.

KOSJENKA : Elle devait donc discipliner un grand groupe d'enfants indisciplinés.

ANNA: She was also teaching me, and I remember when she would take me out of the classroom and to the teacher’s room and then would beat me with a cable.

KOSJENKA: Leaving physical abuse aside for now, please say to your mother, „You are not my teacher, you are my mother. I need you to love me like a mother loves her child, not just discipline me like a teacher disciplines a student”. How does mother respond?

ANNA: She’s like frozen.

KOSJENKA: Imagine to step into mother’s place. If that is uncomfortable, you don’t have to feel too strongly what is going on in your mother, just enough to get some information. Imagine to be your mother and to be frozen when your child asks you to love her as a mother loves her daughter. If you are the mother, why are you frozen?

ANNA: (As the mother) I cannot even see that child. My first thought, my first concern is how I look like when I’m frozen this way.

KOSJENKA: Sounds like the mother is very concerned with what people might say. That’s quite often the case when a parent is a teacher; what would people say about their children. Anna, if you are your mother, who taught you to feel all that fear of what people would say?

ANNA : Je vois maman.

KOSJENKA: Mother’s mother?

ANNA : Oui.

KOSJENKA: That’s very normal, and it’s also very common in clarification that sometimes you need to clarify with another family member before you can continue working with the first one. Where stands grandmother in relation to mother, Anna?

ANNA : Juste devant moi.

KOSJENKA : Qu'est-ce que maman aimerait spontanément dire à sa mère, votre grand-mère ?

ANNA: I’m sick and I cannot work, I’m not able to work, I’m sick.

KOSJENKA : Pouvez-vous nous donner un peu plus de contexte ? Sa mère était malade et sa grand-mère l'a forcée à travailler quand elle était jeune ?

ANNA: I don’t know about my mother’s childhood, but when she was a young woman she got pregnant and the child died, and in some complications she got some heart muscle inflammation and she has had heart problems since then. As they were living in a village, the parents expected their children to help them with work. My mother couldn’t really help much because of the heart problem. When I was young, since I was 12, 14 years old, I was also sent there to help my grandparents.

KOSJENKA: What would grandmother say to mother’s words, “I’m sick, don’t make me work so much”?

ANNA : Elle l'approuve, elle l'accepte, mais d'un autre côté, elle dit aussi qu'il faut beaucoup prier, qu'il faut beaucoup prier.

KOSJENKA : Comment cela se passe-t-il pour la mère ?

ANNA: Mother feels it was too easy, she doesn’t really feel too much about that. She feels happy about it but not very happy.

KOSJENKA: I would imagine that the key problem is somewhere further in her childhood but we don’t have to know all the details right now. Anna, as mother, what would you really like from your mother? How does the mother want grandmother to love her?

ANNA (dans le rôle de sa mère) : Je tiens à dire qu'elle ne changeait pas mes couches.

KOSJENKA : Même cela est une clarification. Comment la grand-mère répondrait-elle à cela ?

ANNA: Grandma ran away. She’s running away from this.

KOSJENKA: Please say to grandma, “Please don’t run away, I need you.” What says grandma?

ANNA: Grandmother has stopped running, but she’s holding her head in her hand and she’s crying terribly.

KOSJENKA: Ask grandmother, “Why are you crying?”

ANNA : Grand-mère dit que c'était une grande honte.

KOSJENKA : Quelle a été la grande honte ?

ANNA : Avoir un enfant.

KOSJENKA : S'agissait-il d'une grossesse non planifiée ?

ANNA: Grandma is crying and she says that she’s not going to say it to anyone.

KOSJENKA: Go back into yourself, be Anna again. Say to grandmother, “I’m sorry you suffered that shame. People can be cruel sometimes.” What says grandmother?

ANNA : Grand-mère dit que tu ne sais rien et que tu ne peux rien savoir.

KOSJENKA: Say to grandma, “Ok, I don’t know anything about it and I’m sorry that people were cruel to you.” What says grandmother?

ANNA: Grandma has changed, she’s curled inside herself now and she is shaped like an embryo.

KOSJENKA : Il faut peut-être parler à sa mère. Que dirait l'arrière-grand-mère de toute cette situation ?

ANNA: Great-grandmother is angry, she’s furious right now.

KOSJENKA : Demandez à l'arrière-grand-mère ce qui la met en colère.

ANNA: It’s about the shame her daughter is going to bring to her.

KOSJENKA: Say to great-grandmother, „People are cruel sometimes. Cruelty is the true shame.” But by now the society has changed. What would great-grandmother say about what is possible now, what wasn’t possible then?

ANNA : L'arrière-grand-mère a laissé tomber, elle peut laisser tomber cette émotion maintenant, et je peux voir beaucoup de lumière autour d'elle, et elle dit qu'elle me croit.

KOSJENKA : Magnifique. Demandez à votre arrière-grand-mère de reconnaître la douleur que porte sa fille. Peut-être que votre grand-mère est tombée amoureuse de quelqu'un, qu'elle s'est sentie pleine d'amour et qu'elle espérait peut-être que si elle se sentait si bien, rien ne pourrait aller mal.

ANNA: No, I don’t think so because it was the time of the war, it was 1941. It’s possible that my grandma was raped but I don’t know that.

KOSJENKA: Please ask great-grandmother not to hurt her daughter on top of the hurt she’s already suffered.

ANNA : L'arrière-grand-mère pleure.

KOSJENKA : Demandez à l'arrière-grand-mère de soutenir sa fille, de l'aider, de l'aimer.

ANNA : Elle le comprend et elle dit qu'elle essaie, qu'elle veut le faire.

KOSJENKA: Is grandmother willing to accept her mother’s help?

ANNA: The grandmother is now opening from that embryo position. She doesn’t say much now but she is ready to accept.

KOSJENKA: Great. Watch grandmother accepting her mother’s support and love. Maybe she could relax, maybe she could feel better about herself, maybe she could feel better about her daughter, maybe she could learn about how to support a child even against what the world might say.

ANNA : Elle a l'air jeune, elle a une vingtaine d'années et elle est belle. Elle a l'air tellement bien.

KOSJENKA : Très bien. Dites-lui qu'un jour, elle aura une belle fille et que sa fille aura besoin qu'elle l'aime. Que dirait la grand-mère ?

ANNA : Elle a touché son ventre et m'a souri.

KOSJENKA: Tell her that all children are chaotic sometimes, they need to make mistakes, they need to explore. Tell her that it’s important to be patient and kind, for the future of her daughter and for the future of the next generations, too.

ANNA: She is accepting it, she’s happy about it, she’s touching her belly, patting her belly, she’s wearing a polka dot dress and standing somewhere in the fields.

KOSJENKA : Très bien. Imaginez que vous lui montriez votre mère dans le futur, son enfant, et que vous lui demandiez de la soutenir, de l'aimer comme une mère aime sa fille. D'être gentille avec elle, d'être patiente, d'être aimante. Que se passe-t-il ?

ANNA: Grandmother told her now that she’s a mature woman, and my mother stopped paying attention to her clothes, to how they look like, she’s looking at my grandma and I can see some sort of connection between them, like they see each other.

KOSJENKA : Redis à ta grand-mère : "S'il te plaît, aime ta fille comme une mère aime son enfant.

ANNA : Elle le dit, elle dit qu'elle l'aime sans problème.

KOSJENKA : Comment cela se passe-t-il pour la mère maintenant ?

ANNA: She looks like she’s lost.

KOSJENKA : Peut-être a-t-elle besoin d'un peu de temps pour s'y habituer ?

ANNA : Probablement.

KOSJENKA : Laissez-lui le temps de s'habituer. Au fait, est-ce que quelqu'un ronfle là-bas ? (Note : il s'agissait d'une formation en ligne.)

ANNA : Désolée. J'ai deux bulldogs anglais.

KOSJENKA: I didn’t know they could snore.

ANNA : Je dors avec eux tous les soirs.

KOSJENKA: Lucky you, you don’t have such sensitive ears as I.

ANNA : Je me dis qu'il s'agit d'ondes alpha et qu'il faut juste que je m'y adapte.

KOSJENKA: That’s a good way to comfort yourself.
Comment votre mère se sent-elle maintenant ?

ANNA: She’s straightened up, her head is high and she looks happy, content.

KOSJENKA: Great. Now imagine grandmother tells her, „Please love Anna, your daughter.”

ANNA: Mother responds, „Well, when she earns it.”

KOSJENKA : Qu'est-ce que la grand-mère dirait de cela maintenant ?

ANNA: Grandmother says, “Just love her”.

KOSJENKA : Comment cela se passe-t-il pour la mère ?

ANNA: Mom can see me, but she doesn’t really do much, doesn’t say anything, doesn’t make any gestures, but she’s looking at me closely.

KOSJENKA : Anna, imaginez que vous êtes votre mère. Imaginez deux générations de mères aimantes et solidaires derrière vous.

ANNA : Je l'ai senti, je l'ai vraiment senti, j'ai même redressé mon dos. Je me sens bien, j'ai l'impression que quelque chose me soutient.

KOSJENKA : Très bien. Maintenant, en tant que mère, regardez votre fille, regardez Anna de près. Que voyez-vous ?

ANNA (as mother): I see a five year old. She’s very fragile.

KOSJENKA : Que ressentez-vous pour votre fille ?

ANNA : Je pense qu'elle a besoin de moi et que je pourrais essayer de la soutenir.

KOSJENKA : Revenons à Anna, dites à votre mère comment Aimeriez-vous qu'elle vous aime et vous soutienne ?

ANNA (elle-même) : J'aimerais qu'elle me laisse un peu d'espace et qu'elle me laisse créer.

KOSJENKA : Comment votre mère réagirait-elle si vous lui disiez cela ?

ANNA : Elle en a envie, mais d'un autre côté, elle a peur que je m'attire des ennuis, que j'aie des problèmes à cause de ça.

KOSJENKA : Que lui diriez-vous à ce sujet ?

ANNA : Que c'est ma vie et qu'il n'y a que mes ennuis et mes problèmes.

KOSJENKA : Dites-lui aussi que les enfants ont parfois besoin d'avoir des problèmes pour en tirer des leçons. Parfois, le fait de connaître des problèmes peut aider les enfants à apprendre à les gérer ou à les éviter. Il vaut mieux apprendre tôt avec de petits problèmes que plus tard avec des problèmes plus graves. Qu'en penserait votre mère ?

ANNA: She feels good. Earlier she was not really clear, like there was not best resolution in that image of her, but now it feels like she’s got more pixels, the resolution is better.

KOSJENKA : Très bien. Qu'est-ce que vous ressentez, qu'est-ce que votre mère aimerait vous dire maintenant ?

ANNA: “Ok then, go.”

KOSJENKA : Imaginez que la petite Anna puisse avoir plus d'espace, plus de liberté. Comment cela se passerait-il ?

ANNA: It feels great, I’m jumping into a huge aquarium with coral reef, which was always my dream.

KOSJENKA: While the child is playing in the coral reef I’ll comment about a few things. Sometimes you can simply ask the client what would they like to say, or what would they like to comment about what is going on. You don’t have to guide the client all the time. Sometimes a client can feel what would be the most appropriate clarification better than you. It’s like a dance with the client, you listen to their responses, rather than trying to fit the process into some sort of frame as quickly as possible. Whatever needs to be resolved before the next step could be done, resolve it. We never push anything, we never force anything, otherwise we’ll just make the work longer and more difficult. Whatever we skip, we will have to go back to it some time or another. Anna, do you think you are ready now to say to your mother, “You are my mother”?

ANNA : Oui.

KOSJENKA: Say to her, „You are my mother; I am your daughter. I wish we weren’t separated at a time when we needed to connect the most.” How does mother respond?

ANNA: She doesn’t say much, she doesn’t do much, but her face is softer. She is looking at me with care and love.

KOSJENKA: Say to her, “I wish we could have had a better connection, and I know you wanted that too.” What says mother?

ANNA: She confirms it and it looks like she would like to hug me but she’s a little bit afraid.

KOSJENKA : Voulez-vous qu'elle vous prenne dans ses bras ?

ANNA : Oui.

KOSJENKA: Say to mother, „Let’s try, let’s see what happens.”

ANNA: We’re taking baby steps now towards each other. Now we’re hugging.

KOSJENKA : Très bien. Vous pouvez être aussi lent et prudent que vous le souhaitez. Donnez-lui simplement du temps et remarquez ce que vous ressentez.

ANNA: … We stopped hugging and right now we are leaning on each other’s backs. Our backs are touching.

KOSJENKA : Très bien. Demandez à votre mère de se placer derrière votre épaule gauche et de mettre son bras sur votre épaule.

ANNA: That’s what happened, my mother did that and there was no resistance and I feel like everything is in its place, like there is an order to it.

ANNA: Great. This sounds like a good time to stop for now. Some clarification with the aunt would be a good idea next, maybe between mother and aunt, just to clarify who is mother and who is aunt, maybe mother would be angry at the aunt for taking her place. Who knows what else has happened with mother, perhaps there are some traumas to resolve, but that’s a topic for another time. This is a good demonstration, I think, to show how complex a clarification can be. This is perfectly normal, most sessions won’t be straightforward and easy. Thank you, Anna.

ANNA : Merci.

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