Стенограма: Роз'яснення

Це уривок із стенограми модуля 1 тренінгу "Інтегративний системний коучинг". Прояснення - один з перших кроків нашого підходу, відносно простий і зручний для початківців, але все ж досить ефективний.

ANNA: I felt some resistance in the last exercise. It was about the relationship between me, my mother, and her sister. When I was born, my mother was left in the hospital for the next two weeks, and I came home with my father and my aunt, my mother’s sister. For those first two weeks the aunt was my mother, she was mothering me instead of my mother. Since I can remember, since I was about five years old, I remember that my aunt was more important to me than my mother. My mother was very jealous of the relationship between me and her sister, so she was very controlling, she was even using some force, while my aunt was very supportive. During clarification, I resisted, I refused putting my mother in the place where she should be, because that place was already occupied by my aunt.

Добре, чудово. Може, ми могли б записати з тобою демо, якщо ти згодна, Анно?

Clarification can be difficult to systematize and describe, because it depends so much of what your client tells you, and that could be just about anything. Let’s see what comes up with Anna and then we’ll learn more about what we can do with it. Anna, imagine to see your mother, where is she in your family map?

ANNA: She’s walking around me.

KOSJENKA: That sounds like there is some confusion about her. Sometimes when you are not quite sure where to start, or as a relatively easy introduction to clarification for a client, you could ask, „What would you like to say to this family member, that you never said or never had a chance to say?” Anna, is there something that you would spontaneously like to say to your mother that you would like your mother to know?

Анна: Я б хотіла сказати їй, щоб вона дала мені спокій, залишила мене в спокої, залишила мене в спокої.

KOSJENKA: This can also be a part of clarification. Clarification is not just about a formula, although we are working towards, let’s say, an end formula: You are my mother – I am your daughter. Especially if a relationship is difficult, let clients say whatever they want to say at first. You can think of clarification as a conversation in which everything that needs to be brought to the light is brought to the light, with the end goal of coming to an agreement of who is who in a healthy relationship. Anna, go ahead and say to your mother, “Leave me alone.”

Залиш мене в спокої.

Перевірте, як би спонтанно відреагувала мама.

ANNA: She’s a bit surprised now. She doesn’t say a thing but she’s showing me her fist, she’s shaking her fist.

КОС'ЄНКА: Можливо, ти міг би пояснити мамі, що тебе турбує, що тебе непокоїть у її поведінці.

Анна: Вона кричала на мене, била мене, читала мої щоденники, перевіряла, які книги я читаю, щоб цензурувати їх.

KOSJENKA: How would mother react if you’d explain this to her?

ANNA: She says that you have to keep your kids on a short leash. Otherwise they don’t have respect for anyone.

KOSJENKA: A few decades ago it was a common idea that you have to control your children quite harshly, otherwise you’d spoil them. People often don’t seem to see much between one extreme and the other. Anna, ask your mother, „Who taught you that?”

Вона сказала, що це була школа. Моя мати була вчителькою.

КОСЕНКА: Тож їй довелося дисциплінувати велику групу неслухняних дітей.

ANNA: She was also teaching me, and I remember when she would take me out of the classroom and to the teacher’s room and then would beat me with a cable.

KOSJENKA: Leaving physical abuse aside for now, please say to your mother, „You are not my teacher, you are my mother. I need you to love me like a mother loves her child, not just discipline me like a teacher disciplines a student”. How does mother respond?

ANNA: She’s like frozen.

KOSJENKA: Imagine to step into mother’s place. If that is uncomfortable, you don’t have to feel too strongly what is going on in your mother, just enough to get some information. Imagine to be your mother and to be frozen when your child asks you to love her as a mother loves her daughter. If you are the mother, why are you frozen?

ANNA: (As the mother) I cannot even see that child. My first thought, my first concern is how I look like when I’m frozen this way.

KOSJENKA: Sounds like the mother is very concerned with what people might say. That’s quite often the case when a parent is a teacher; what would people say about their children. Anna, if you are your mother, who taught you to feel all that fear of what people would say?

Я бачу маму.

KOSJENKA: Mother’s mother?

Так.

KOSJENKA: That’s very normal, and it’s also very common in clarification that sometimes you need to clarify with another family member before you can continue working with the first one. Where stands grandmother in relation to mother, Anna?

Прямо переді мною.

KOSJENKA: Що б мама спонтанно хотіла сказати своїй мамі, вашій бабусі?

ANNA: I’m sick and I cannot work, I’m not able to work, I’m sick.

KOSJENKA: Можете дати нам трохи більше контексту? Мама хворіла, і бабуся змушувала її працювати, коли вона була молодою?

ANNA: I don’t know about my mother’s childhood, but when she was a young woman she got pregnant and the child died, and in some complications she got some heart muscle inflammation and she has had heart problems since then. As they were living in a village, the parents expected their children to help them with work. My mother couldn’t really help much because of the heart problem. When I was young, since I was 12, 14 years old, I was also sent there to help my grandparents.

KOSJENKA: What would grandmother say to mother’s words, “I’m sick, don’t make me work so much”?

Анна: Вона схвалює це, вона приймає це, але з іншого боку, вона також каже, що ми повинні багато молитися, ми повинні багато молитися.

Як це для мами?

ANNA: Mother feels it was too easy, she doesn’t really feel too much about that. She feels happy about it but not very happy.

KOSJENKA: I would imagine that the key problem is somewhere further in her childhood but we don’t have to know all the details right now. Anna, as mother, what would you really like from your mother? How does the mother want grandmother to love her?

АННА (в ролі матері): Я хочу сказати, що вона не міняла мені підгузки.

КОСЕНКА: Навіть це вже уточнення. Як би на це відреагувала бабуся?

ANNA: Grandma ran away. She’s running away from this.

KOSJENKA: Please say to grandma, “Please don’t run away, I need you.” What says grandma?

ANNA: Grandmother has stopped running, but she’s holding her head in her hand and she’s crying terribly.

KOSJENKA: Ask grandmother, “Why are you crying?”

Бабуся каже, що це був великий сором.

КОСЬЄНКА: Що вас найбільше засмутило?

Завести дитину.

КОСЯНКА: Це була незапланована вагітність чи щось таке?

ANNA: Grandma is crying and she says that she’s not going to say it to anyone.

KOSJENKA: Go back into yourself, be Anna again. Say to grandmother, “I’m sorry you suffered that shame. People can be cruel sometimes.” What says grandmother?

Бабуся каже, що ти нічого не знаєш і не можеш знати про це.

KOSJENKA: Say to grandma, “Ok, I don’t know anything about it and I’m sorry that people were cruel to you.” What says grandmother?

ANNA: Grandma has changed, she’s curled inside herself now and she is shaped like an embryo.

Може, треба поговорити з її матір'ю? Що б прабабуся сказала на всю цю ситуацію?

ANNA: Great-grandmother is angry, she’s furious right now.

Запитайте прабабусю, що її так розлютило.

ANNA: It’s about the shame her daughter is going to bring to her.

KOSJENKA: Say to great-grandmother, „People are cruel sometimes. Cruelty is the true shame.” But by now the society has changed. What would great-grandmother say about what is possible now, what wasn’t possible then?

Анна: Прабабуся відпустила б це, вона може відпустити цю емоцію зараз, і я бачу багато світла навколо неї, і вона каже, що вірить мені.

Прекрасно. Попросіть свою прабабусю усвідомити, скільки болю несе її дочка. Можливо, бабуся закохалася в когось, відчувала себе сповненою любові і, можливо, сподівалася, що якщо їй так добре, то нічого не може піти не так.

ANNA: No, I don’t think so because it was the time of the war, it was 1941. It’s possible that my grandma was raped but I don’t know that.

KOSJENKA: Please ask great-grandmother not to hurt her daughter on top of the hurt she’s already suffered.

Прабабуся плаче.

Попросити прабабусю підтримати доньку, допомогти їй, полюбити її.

Анна: Вона це розуміє і каже, що намагається, що хоче.

KOSJENKA: Is grandmother willing to accept her mother’s help?

ANNA: The grandmother is now opening from that embryo position. She doesn’t say much now but she is ready to accept.

KOSJENKA: Great. Watch grandmother accepting her mother’s support and love. Maybe she could relax, maybe she could feel better about herself, maybe she could feel better about her daughter, maybe she could learn about how to support a child even against what the world might say.

Анна: Вона виглядає молодою, їй десь 20 з чимось років, і вона красива. Вона відчуває себе такою правильною.

Чудово. Скажи їй, що одного дня у неї народиться прекрасна донька, і донька потребуватиме її любові. Що скаже бабуся?

Вона доторкнулася до свого живота і посміхнулася мені.

KOSJENKA: Tell her that all children are chaotic sometimes, they need to make mistakes, they need to explore. Tell her that it’s important to be patient and kind, for the future of her daughter and for the future of the next generations, too.

ANNA: She is accepting it, she’s happy about it, she’s touching her belly, patting her belly, she’s wearing a polka dot dress and standing somewhere in the fields.

Косьєнка: Чудово. Уявіть, що ви покажете їй свою майбутню матір, свою дитину, і попросите її підтримувати її, любити її так, як мати любить свою доньку. Бути доброю до неї, терплячою, люблячою. Що відбувається?

ANNA: Grandmother told her now that she’s a mature woman, and my mother stopped paying attention to her clothes, to how they look like, she’s looking at my grandma and I can see some sort of connection between them, like they see each other.

Скажи бабусі ще раз: "Будь ласка, люби свою доньку так, як мати любить свою дитину".

Анна: Вона так і каже, каже, що любить її без жодних проблем.

КОС'ЄНКА: Як це зараз для мами?

ANNA: She looks like she’s lost.

КОСЯНКА: Може, їй потрібен час, щоб звикнути?

Можливо.

Дай їй трохи часу, щоб звикнути. До речі, у вас там хтось хропе? (Примітка: це був онлайн-тренінг.)

Вибачте. У мене два англійських бульдоги.

KOSJENKA: I didn’t know they could snore.

Анна: Я сплю з ними щоночі.

KOSJENKA: Lucky you, you don’t have such sensitive ears as I.

Анна: Я кажу собі, що це альфа-хвилі, і я просто повинна налаштуватися на них.

KOSJENKA: That’s a good way to comfort yourself.
Як зараз почувається твоя мама?

ANNA: She’s straightened up, her head is high and she looks happy, content.

KOSJENKA: Great. Now imagine grandmother tells her, „Please love Anna, your daughter.”

ANNA: Mother responds, „Well, when she earns it.”

КОСЕНКА: А що б на це сказала бабуся?

ANNA: Grandmother says, “Just love her”.

Як це для мами?

ANNA: Mom can see me, but she doesn’t really do much, doesn’t say anything, doesn’t make any gestures, but she’s looking at me closely.

Анно, уявіть себе знову на місці своєї матері. Уявіть, що за вами стоять два покоління люблячих і підтримуючих матерів.

Анна: Я відчула це, я дійсно відчула це, я навіть випрямила спину. Це приємне відчуття, наче щось мене підтримує.

Чудово. Тепер, як мати, подивіться на свою доньку, подивіться на Анну уважно. Що ти бачиш?

ANNA (as mother): I see a five year old. She’s very fragile.

KOSJENKA: Що ви відчуваєте до своєї доньки?

Анна: Я думаю, що я їй потрібна, і я могла б спробувати підтримати її.

Повертаючись до Анни, скажи, будь ласка, своїй мамі як чи хотіли б ви, щоб вона вас любила і підтримувала.

АННА (про себе): Я б хотіла, щоб вона дала мені трохи простору і дозволила творити.

КОСЯНКА: Як би відреагувала ваша мама, якби ви їй про це сказали?

Анна: Вона нібито хоче цього, але з іншого боку, вона відчуває певний страх, що я сама можу потрапити в халепу, що в мене можуть бути проблеми через це.

КОСЯНКА: Що б ви їй про це сказали?

Що це моє життя, і це будуть тільки мої проблеми і клопоти.

КОСЯНКА: Може, ще скажеш їй, що іноді дітям потрібні неприємності, щоб вчитися на них. Іноді переживання неприємностей може допомогти дітям навчитися справлятися з ними або уникати їх. Краще вчитися рано на маленьких неприємностях, ніж пізніше на більших. Як би мама поставилася до цього?

ANNA: She feels good. Earlier she was not really clear, like there was not best resolution in that image of her, but now it feels like she’s got more pixels, the resolution is better.

Чудово. Що ти відчуваєш, що твоя мама хотіла б тобі зараз сказати?

ANNA: “Ok then, go.”

КОСЕНКА: Уявіть, що маленька Анна може мати більше простору, більше свободи. Як би це було?

ANNA: It feels great, I’m jumping into a huge aquarium with coral reef, which was always my dream.

KOSJENKA: While the child is playing in the coral reef I’ll comment about a few things. Sometimes you can simply ask the client what would they like to say, or what would they like to comment about what is going on. You don’t have to guide the client all the time. Sometimes a client can feel what would be the most appropriate clarification better than you. It’s like a dance with the client, you listen to their responses, rather than trying to fit the process into some sort of frame as quickly as possible. Whatever needs to be resolved before the next step could be done, resolve it. We never push anything, we never force anything, otherwise we’ll just make the work longer and more difficult. Whatever we skip, we will have to go back to it some time or another. Anna, do you think you are ready now to say to your mother, “You are my mother”?

Так.

KOSJENKA: Say to her, „You are my mother; I am your daughter. I wish we weren’t separated at a time when we needed to connect the most.” How does mother respond?

ANNA: She doesn’t say much, she doesn’t do much, but her face is softer. She is looking at me with care and love.

KOSJENKA: Say to her, “I wish we could have had a better connection, and I know you wanted that too.” What says mother?

ANNA: She confirms it and it looks like she would like to hug me but she’s a little bit afraid.

Хочеш, щоб вона тебе обійняла?

Так.

KOSJENKA: Say to mother, „Let’s try, let’s see what happens.”

ANNA: We’re taking baby steps now towards each other. Now we’re hugging.

Чудово. Ти можеш бути настільки повільним і обережним, наскільки хочеш. Просто почекай і поспостерігай за відчуттями.

ANNA: … We stopped hugging and right now we are leaning on each other’s backs. Our backs are touching.

Чудово. Попроси маму стати за твоїм лівим плечем і покласти руку тобі на плече.

ANNA: That’s what happened, my mother did that and there was no resistance and I feel like everything is in its place, like there is an order to it.

ANNA: Great. This sounds like a good time to stop for now. Some clarification with the aunt would be a good idea next, maybe between mother and aunt, just to clarify who is mother and who is aunt, maybe mother would be angry at the aunt for taking her place. Who knows what else has happened with mother, perhaps there are some traumas to resolve, but that’s a topic for another time. This is a good demonstration, I think, to show how complex a clarification can be. This is perfectly normal, most sessions won’t be straightforward and easy. Thank you, Anna.

Дякую.

Наш наступний онлайн-тренінг з коучингу розпочнеться 26 квітня 2025 року о 9 ранку за центральноєвропейським часом. Зв'яжіться з нами, якщо ви хочете приєднатися!

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